Launching on both Disney+ and Hulu on January 9th, ‘Echo’ sees Marvel looking to assuage claims that it can only ever produce stories that are intrinsically linked to the wider cinematic universe.
So even though this is spun off from 2021’s ‘Hawkeye’ (where Alaqua Cox was introduced as deaf criminal enforcer Maya “Echo” Lopez), the new show looks to stand on its own for the most part. Even if the studio known for its sprawling storytelling can’t help but sprinkle in at least one cameo from another Marvel stalwart.
What ‘Echo’ really has to prove, however, is that it’s worthy of existing at all, especially at such a crucially tough point for Marvel (the company had a dreadful 2023 and faces a new year with a reduced number of shows and movies to rely on), and in the wake of rumors that it was heavily re-worked after early cuts were met with dissatisfaction by studio bosses.
Like Maya Lopez herself, this proves to be a scrappy, violent piece of work that often finds itself with its back up against the wall, but often with a smart solutions. Or, failing that, some nifty fighting skills.
Marvel only provided critics with the first three episodes (of five) and the fact that it’s all dropping in one go as opposed to the usual weekly release the company has established for its Disney+ output also carries with it the faint whiff of something that the studio is looking to push out (in January, no less) and move on from.
Yet while this is a far from perfect example of Marvel storytelling, it does at least take some interesting swings and layers in plenty of Native American (specifically Choctaw Nation) detail in an attempt to have this stand out from the typical bout of superpowered fisticuffs.
Advertised as the first of the new “Marvel Spotlight” label (the destination for stories that don’t have to move the wider MCU story forward), this is a darker and more vicious take on the character, especially in the wake of the more lighthearted ‘Hawkeye’.
With Sydney Freedland as lead director and executive producer, strides have been made to have ‘Echo’ offer real Native American representation, featuring plenty of flashbacks to the Choctaw Nation’s past and Maya herself seeming to channel ancestors (or at least have visions of them) at certain points.
In reality, though, it still somewhat comes across as window dressing more than, say a series such as ‘Reservation Dogs’, which fully embraces its native nature and has real use for it. Still, there are enough layers here that you appreciate the attempt.
Story-wise, the majority of the initial episode spends its time catching the audience up on what has happened before with the character and exploring her origin –– including how she lost part of one leg and learned of her family’s criminal links. Some of it is welcome world-building (and when you have actors such as Graham Greene and Zahn McClarnon in the roles, you know it’ll be worthwhile), while other scenes can feel like the show dragging its feet.
The look of the show is a real mixed bag –– while the focus is on a grittier, grounded and more realistic feel than some of the other MCU TV series, when the show does look to expand its focus, the visuals can sometimes devolve into a plastic-y, inauthentic-feeling mish-mash of styles, such as in an otherwise effective train sequence.
And though the show does not live and die on its fight scenes as, say the ‘Daredevil’ series did, what is here is also a toss-up. Some, including one that boasts Charlie Cox’s character himself, are extremely effective and well shot, whereas others just don’t work as well.
Cox brings the same blend of intensity and vulnerability as in ‘Hawkeye’, making Maya a character you’re happy to follow along with. The writers this time around have given her an entertaining knack for “MacGyvering” up solutions when she’s trapped, such as when she’s being held in the back room of a roller-skating rink.
And there is, of course, Vincent D’Onofrio, who brinks typically hulking menace to Wilson Fisk, AKA the Kingpin. He’s been bringing this character to life for years and while (in the episodes we were sent) he doesn’t have much to do besides seem dangerous, he always brings a noble ferocity to the role.
The new characters (though we glimpsed McClarnon as Maya’s father briefly in ‘Hawkeye’) are largely native color or feel like they come from some version of ‘Fargo’ or ‘Justified’ but add solid presence to the show so it’s not just Maya being badass. The likes of Devery Jacobs (a ‘Reservation Dogs’ veteran) as Maya’s cousin Bonnie all make the character’s hometown feel like something she would want to protect, even if she has been away from them for two decades.
It never quite escapes the feeling that this was a patch-job for a series that doesn’t quite function the way it should, but ‘Echo’ is certainly better than many feared it might be.
Cox’s scowly anti-hero seems unlikely to show up elsewhere within the MCU, but you’ll have a decent time following her exploits here.
Following the events chronicled in 2021’s ‘Hawkeye’, ‘Echo’ catches up with Maya Lopez (Alaqua Cox) as she is pursued by Wilson Fisk’s (Vincent D’Onofrio) criminal empire.
When the journey brings her home, she must confront her own family and legacy.
In ‘Echo,’ the new Marvel Studios streaming series on Disney+, we reunite with the title character, aka Maya Lopez (Alaqua Cox), who we first met in the 2021 series ‘Hawkeye.’ This deaf member of the Choctaw Nation was working in that show as head of the Tracksuit Mafia, a criminal gang operating under the auspices of Wilson Fisk, aka Kingpin (Vincent D’Onofrio).
Learning that Fisk was responsible for the death of her father, Maya seemingly took her revenge on her boss and mentor at the end of ‘Hawkeye,’ shooting him in the eye. But as Marvel fans know, the Kingpin is almost impossible to keep down. With Fisk and his organization now after her in ‘Echo,’ Maya heads back to her hometown in Oklahoma, where she works to disrupt the Kingpin’s plans while re-embracing her family, her Native American roots, and her mysterious past.
‘Echo’ is the 10th Marvel Studios series to debut on Disney+ as part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Like many other recent MCU offerings, ‘Echo’ has had its share of turbulence: the show was reportedly shot initially as an eight-episode limited series, but was later overhauled and reshot, with its episode count whittled down to five and its release delayed.
In its current incarnation, ‘Echo’ may be Marvel’s most violent series yet, with a gritty tone reminiscent of Marvel’s now-defunct Netflix shows like ‘Daredevil’ and ‘The Punisher.’ It’s also steeped in representation of the Choctaw Nation and Indigenous culture, with Marvel – in keeping with its long history in the comics – leading the way on giving marginalized people a seat at the superhero table.
Here are 10 things we learned at the ‘Echo’ press conference from Cox, D’Onofrio, Canadian Mohawk cast member Devery Jacobs, Navajo director and executive producer Sydney Freeland, and Marvel Head of Streaming, Television, and Animation Brad Winderbaum (edited for clarity and length).
A member of the Menominee and Mohican Nations, Alaqua Cox made her acting debut as Maya Lopez in ‘Hawkeye.’ Born deaf like her character, Cox faced other challenges as well, including growing up as an amputee with a prosthetic leg. Lopez says she shares many experiences with Maya.
Alaqua Cox: Well, we’re similar. I was raised with some trauma. We both have childhood trauma, of course, that we’re raised with, and it was different, of course. For example, I am an amputee, so I went through many different kinds of surgeries as a child. That made me a warrior, in a sense. And Maya had the death of her mother and all these tragic events that happened in her life. So we both have different traumatic experiences. It kind of makes us very similar in a way because we’re both warriors, we’re tough, and we’re badass, and I believe that’s how we’re the same.
Alaqua Cox says her athletic background helped her prepare for the rigorous training she undertook to fight and move like Maya.
Alaqua Cox: Luckily, I grew up playing different kinds of sports. Plus I do have an older brother who helped me become more of an athlete, because he’s very much an athletic person. We’re about a year and a half apart, so we wrestled growing up. That toughened me up. Then, when I did get the role, I had a stunt training team. About five days a week I would go to the training, and it was a lot. I learned so much as well. Growing up in sports, there weren’t a lot of stunt-specific things in sports, so stunt training was a whole new world to me. I was able to learn choreography, jabs, fights, and those specific moves, and that was so fun, and very challenging as well. But that was the greatest part of the project.
3) Why Vincent D’Onofrio Loves Playing Kingpin
Vincent D’Onofrio as Wilson “Kingpin” Fisk on Netflix’s ‘Daredevil.’
Vincent D’Onofrio has played Kingpin now in three Marvel series — ‘Daredevil,’ ‘Hawkeye,’ and ‘Echo’ — and explains why he continues to find Wilson Fisk such a compelling character.
Vincent D’Onofrio: I think that, originally in the comic books, he was also compelling. I’ve just been lucky to get the opportunity, beginning with the Netflix show, with really good writing, to bring him forward in I guess a kind of new way, but just my version of what they did in the original comics. Now in ‘Echo,’ it’s just more good writing. Without the writing, I can’t really do much other than show up. So the writing is there, and it gives me the opportunity to bring the character forward. ‘Echo’ is the first time since the Netflix show when I’ve actually felt like we brought Fisk into Maya’s story, but in a way that Fisk is, I think, best portrayed. It’s very similar to the way it was in the original series. That’s very exciting for me always, because it has a grittier feel to it and it’s a more emotional story with me and Alaqua’s character, Maya. I think that kind of tone is where my character, I believe, lives best.
Director and executive producer Sydney Freeland says that representation and collaboration with the Choctaw Nation was essential for ‘Echo.’
Sydney Freeland: Representation wasn’t something that was “if,” it was always something that was a necessity. So I think one of the things that was important for us was being able to engage with the Choctaw Nation very early on. I remember we came and presented at the Choctaw Cultural Center [in Oklahoma]. Really, for myself, there was two things. One was to ask permission from the Choctaw Nation to be portrayed because I feel like a lot of times what happens with Native and Indigenous stories is that people come in and they say, “We’re going to tell you what the story we’re going to tell.” We wanted to take a different approach. The second part was like, “Can we create a dialogue?” We want to be as authentic in our portrayal of the Choctaw language, the Choctaw culture, the Choctaw experience as we can. That came from the Choctaw Nation. I think a lot of times people tend to jumble all Native American tribes and cultures into this one big kind of monolith, and that’s not the case. Every tribe is different, every language is different, every culture has its own unique specificities. I’m Navajo and we’re telling a Choctaw story, so for me, it was an absolute necessity that we engage the Choctaw Nation to tell that story.
5) Choctaw Art Inspired One of the Show’s Key Relationships
Devery Jacobs (also the voice of Kahhori on Season 2 of Marvel’s ‘What If…?’) plays Bonnie, a child of deaf parents and Maya’s cousin, who stayed behind in Oklahoma to live her life there. Jacobs says that a piece of art was an inspiration for her character’s complex, sister-like relationship to Maya.
Devery Jacobs: We really wanted to make sure that it felt real between myself and Alaqua, that we had that history feel between us, and we did a lot of work beforehand to make sure that that history could be felt. Also, before going to Atlanta to shoot ‘Echo,’ I had a chance to stop in at the Choctaw Cultural Center, which was so beautiful. There was a piece towards the very end — and I’m kicking myself that I can’t remember the artist’s name — that was about these two cousins. There’s an older cousin and a younger cousin, and the relationship between Maya and Bonnie is, even though they’re cousins, it’s almost like they’re sisters. So it was that piece that was really inspiring to me. I remember texting the image to Alaqua and was like, “This feels like this is our characters.”
Director Sydney Freeland says that ‘Echo’ reveals more about Maya Lopez’s past as well as that of the Choctaw Nation.
Sydney Freeland: One of the most interesting aspects about the character is the fact that she’s a villain in ‘Hawkeye.’ But then within that, once you start pulling on that thread, you look at where she comes from, and you look at, “Oh, this is a deaf, Indigenous amputee girl from Oklahoma. How the hell does she end up being one of the top-ranking lieutenants in Kingpin’s army?” Answering those questions was such an exciting place to be. Then answering the question, “Well, what is that like when she goes back home?” Just for myself, being Indigenous, being an American, it was such a fun and exciting place to be. Then once you layer the Choctaw cultural specifics onto that, it gave us a chance to tell a really fun story. I think one example of that is actually in the second episode of our series. We have a scene that I think I can honestly say has never been seen on film before: we get a chance to visit pre-European-contact America, and that whole sequence came as a direct result of working with the Choctaw Nation.
Marvel movies and TV shows tend to land almost exclusively in more or less family-friendly territory in terms of ratings (PG-13 for movies, TV-PG or TV-14 for series). ‘Echo’ is the first Marvel show to land a TV-MA rating — the small screen equivalent to an R.
Brad Winderbaum: Well, I think Marvel is at its best when the storytellers follow the character and let the character kind of lead the dance, lead the journey. We knew, as soon as we cast Alaqua in ‘Hawkeye’ and saw what she did on screen in that show, that she would be an incredible character to follow into her journey. You know, ‘Echo’ is a more adult show. It’s our first TV-MA show, but we didn’t set out to make a TV-MA show. We set out to make a Maya Lopez show. This is a character who has a violent past, who’s dealt with some real trauma, who has really difficult decisions to make and ultimately has to confront people she loves in order to grow and change. In following this character, it created the tone. It created a grittier, more grounded story for the audience. That just so happened to be more adult. More TV-MA. But it really was always born from Maya as a character.
8) Vincent D’Onofrio Had An ‘Amazing’ Time Working on ‘Echo’
Despite rumors of extensive reshoots and revisions, Vincent D’Onofrio says that ‘Echo’ was a particularly satisfying experience for him and explains why.
Vincent D’Onofrio: There’s a couple things about this show that were really special. One of them was the fact that Sydney was one of the directors and executive producers. Then there was the fact that the DP was a woman. The writer was a woman. The directors were women. The lead is a woman. It’s one of the smoothest shows that I was ever on in my life. It was run so well. There was never a kink in the day. Nobody ever bumped against anything, not while I was there anyway. It was one of the smoothest productions. The first thing I said to my kids when I got home was, “That was one of the smoothest productions I’ve ever been on.” It was amazing, and that doesn’t always happen.
9) ‘Echo’ Is an Evolution in Storytelling for Native People
Alaqua Cox said that making ‘Echo’ with Native representation, actors, and creators is a major step forward in telling Indigenous stories in Hollywood.
Alaqua Cox: I’m just so proud to be able to represent a platform that is uplifting voices for Indigenous people, and I’m just obviously so excited. I think it’s so great that we have authentic people being picked for these roles, and we’re able to show them on the screen in authentic representation. We’re doing it the right way. That’s what I think is the most important.
Devery Jacobs added:
Devery Jacobs: To borrow a saying from the disabled community that they have coined, they say nothing about us without us. I think that’s so true for any marginalized community, including Indigenous folks. When it comes to telling our stories, making sure that there are as many storytellers from that community as possible is paramount. There’s been 100 years of lack of representation and misrepresentation and an intentional exclusion of Indigenous voices in Hollywood. To have us be a part of these conversations is integral to making sure that we’re able to accurately tell our stories.
Marvel executive producer Brad Winderbaum says that ‘Echo’ marks a new turning point for the way Marvel tells stories.
Brad Winderbaum: Marvel is such a big, vast universe. The comics have been called the greatest ongoing story that’s ever been written – certainly the longest. There are so many corners to the universe that are still unexplored, even today. Maya allowed us to see a corner of the MCU that hadn’t been seen before. To me, that is the future of Marvel. It is being able to tell stories that are unexpected, that operate on the fringe of what we’ve seen before, and are standalone, character-focused, and have a unique personality all their own. In a way, ‘Echo’ marks a new beginning for the studio. It’s a new tone for us. It is a truly grounded and emotional journey. Not just for the audience, but certainly, for all of us who are lucky to be behind the scenes. I have to say that, through Sydney’s leadership on the production, we had a real sense of community making this show. It was a nurturing, collaborative experience, and frankly, one of the best in my career.
Following the events chronicled in 2021’s ‘Hawkeye’, ‘Echo’ catches up with Maya Lopez (Alaqua Cox) as she is pursued by Wilson Fisk’s (Vincent D’Onofrio) criminal empire. When the journey brings her home, she must confront her own family and legacy.
In the early 1920s, members of the Osage Nation are being murdered or dying mysteriously on their land in Oklahoma, which has made them incredibly wealthy due to the vast deposits of oil underneath their feet. World War I veteran Ernest Burkhart (Leonardo DiCaprio) comes to live in the town of Gray Horse with his uncle, William Hale (Robert De Niro), and soon marries a rich Osage Nation woman named Mollie (Lily Gladstone). But Burkhart finds himself drawn into a far-ranging conspiracy that may claim his wife and her entire family.
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Who is in the cast of ‘Killers of the Flower Moon’?
At first glance, ‘Killers of the Flower Moon’ seems tailor-made for master filmmaker Martin Scorsese. Both a crime thriller and a penetrating look at a seemingly forgotten chapter of early 20th century American history, the film is on the surface a true epic. Clocking in at 206 minutes and immersing the viewer in the world of the Osage Nation and the corrupt, nearly lawless environs of the American South that threatened their existence, the film is bolstered by the sterling work of its cast and crew. But Scorsese makes two errors that prevent ‘Killers’ from joining the upper echelons of his filmography, and at points nearly stop the movie in its tracks.
Story and Direction
(L to R) Lily Gladstone and Martin Scorsese in ‘Killers of the Flower Moon,’ coming soon to Apple TV+.
In the late 1800s, the U.S. government pushed the Osage Nation out of its native land in Ohio and Mississippi and onto a rough area of Oklahoma known as “Indian territory”. But the joke was on the government, because the land was sitting atop a vast reservoir of oil; by the turn of the 20th century, the Osage were among the wealthiest people in the United States.
All this is laid out succinctly in the opening moments of “Killers of the Flower Moon,” along with the fact that, as the 1920s roll around, members of the Osage are either being outright murdered or passing away from mysterious ailments such as a “wasting disease.” And with the local authorities in the pockets of equally rich white land barons and businessmen who have established themselves in the nearby town of Gray Horse, none of these supremely suspicious deaths are investigated.
Into this toxic situation comes returning WW1 vet Ernest Burkhart (DiCaprio), ostensibly looking for work but soon – at the suggestion of his uncle, cattle baron William King Hale (De Niro) — courting and marrying Mollie (Gladstone), whose family is among the richest in the Osage Nation. But as Mollie falls ill and other members of both her family and the Nation continue to perish, it becomes clear that this is all a grand conspiracy to seize the Osage Nation’s oil rights and the immense fortunes that come with them – even as its mastermind, Hale, acts as benefactor, friend, and supporter of the Nation.
With nearly all the local law enforcement either in Hale’s pocket or killed themselves, Mollie and several members of the Nation plead for help from President Calvin Coolidge. He dispatches agents of the newly formed Bureau of Investigation (later known as the FBI), led by Tom White (Jesse Plemons), to get to the bottom of the killings.
(L to R) Robert De Niro and Jesse Plemons in ‘Killers of the Flower Moon,’ coming soon to Apple TV+.
It’s easy to see why this material appealed to Scorsese: it’s both a generational crime saga – albeit not set in the usual Mafia confines he’s known for – and a searing indictment of the underside of American capitalism and institutional racism, as white interlopers use any means necessary to steal from the Osage what rightfully belongs to them, with – at first – hardly any consequences.
From a technical and artistic standpoint, ‘Killers’ is a marvel in every sense. The sets, the costumes, the period details, and the cinematography by Rodrigo Prieto all capture the texture of life in a very rough part of the United States some 100 years ago. The portrayal of the Osage Nation seems accurate and respectful, and late musicianRobbie Robertson’s powerful yet subtle score combines a throbbing, relentless modern bass line with Indigenous musical cues.
Yet ‘Killers’ falls short in two major areas: the pacing of the film is languid and curiously lacking in tension, as the plot and villains are telegraphed early on and much of the film is filled with odd editing choices – such as the presentation of a murder onscreen after it’s been described at least twice (including in a courtroom scene just prior), making the actual staging of it seem almost gratuitous. Another truly bizarre addition is Scorsese’s final scene, which wraps up the story in a strange expository sequence that nearly takes us out of the film.
But the movie’s biggest flaw is using Ernest Burkhart – an important but secondary player in the book – as the main character. The central character is clearly Mollie Burkhart, although she is relegated to the background for much of the film’s second half. The other major character in the book is BOI agent Tom White (a subdued Plemons, in the role DiCaprio was originally supposed to play), who arrives two-thirds of the way through the film and is also given short shrift as a character. Yet he and Mollie are essentially the moral compasses of the story, while Burkhart appears to have no inner core whatsoever and just allows himself to be manipulated by the people and events around him. This adds to the lack of energy and urgency that this hefty film so desperately needs.
(L to R) Lily Gladstone and Leonardo DiCaprio in ‘Killers of the Flower Moon,’ coming soon to Apple TV+.
It’s kind of astonishing to realize that Leonardo DiCaprio and Robert De Niro have not worked together onscreen since 1993’s ‘This Boy’s Life,’ and that the two of them – who have starred in five and nine previous Martin Scorsese pictures, respectively – have never shared the screen under Scorsese’s direction before. So it’s kind of momentous to see them together here.
In the end, however, it’s De Niro who comes across the strongest. His Hale is a masterful portrayal of an unapologetic monster, a man who apparently sees no moral disparity in the way he both seemingly cares for the Osage Nation and ruthlessly plots their slaughter in pursuit of money and power. He remains calm and self-composed, fatherly and yet stern, and professes his love for specific people even as he knows he’s condemning them to death. It’s no secret that Robert De Niro, in the latter stages of his career, has worked in a lot of less than stellar films; but it’s clear that working with his old friend and collaborator brings out the very best in this still vital actor.
As we detail above, DiCaprio is trapped with a character who is positioned as the film’s nominal protagonist (we wouldn’t call him a hero) while also part of the treachery and depravity that drives the film’s narrative. As such, the character seems strangely passive throughout, if not outright stupid at times, his face seems screwed up in a permanent grimace. De Niro’s Hale is clearly defined throughout the movie; DiCaprio’s Ernest Burkhart is not, and that muddies the good work that Leo is doing. He still delivers in several scenes, especially one between Ernest and Mollie that is one of the few truly heartbreaking moments in a film that should have a lot more of them.
Speaking of which, the third component of the film’s main triumvirate is also its standout. With a modest list of film and TV credits behind her, Lily Gladstone is simply riveting to watch here as Mollie. It’s a shame that the character is waylaid in bed for much of the film’s second half, because Gladstone brings dignity yet humanity to the character – she’s not put on a pedestal as some shining example of an Indigenous person, but is a human being with her own flaws and blind spots. And her grief, rage, and horror as she realizes what is happening to her and her people is palpable and intense.
How Accurate Is The Story?
(L to R) JaNae Collins, Lily Gladstone, Cara Jade Myers and Jillian Dion in ‘Killers of the Flower Moon,’ coming soon to Apple TV+.
David Grann’s book is meticulously researched, all the more impressive considering how much of the history of these events remains murky or was outright destroyed as the perpetrators covered their tracks. Scorsese and co-screenwriter Eric Roth may have brought certain aspects of the story forward in a manner that departs from the book, but the major elements of the story remain the same. And it’s the little details that cement the film’s devotion to presenting an accurate portrayal of the Osage Nation and the events of the time.
In fact, some of those details may not be clear to viewers the first time around, especially if one hasn’t read the book. For instance, wealthy Osage members, particularly women, are labeled “incompetents,” deemed incapable of handling their own money. It’s mentioned in the movie often and a perfect example of the level of accuracy and detail that Grann’s book strives for, and which Scorsese, Roth and their team replicate.
Final Thoughts
‘Killers of the Flower Moon’ is worth seeing for its tremendous performances by Lily Gladstone, Robert De Niro, and others, as well as its incredible production design, detailed immersion in the world of Gray Horse, Oklahoma and the Osage Nation, and haunting score from Robbie Robertson. But viewers will feel every minute of the film’s three-and-a-half-hour length, and the decision to see most of the story through the eyes of Leonardo DiCaprio’s Ernest Burkhart is a nearly fatal flaw that robs the film of a point of view or moral center.
‘Killers of the Flower Moon’ receives 6 out of 10 stars.
(L to R) Leonardo DiCaprio and Lily Gladstone in ‘Killers of the Flower Moon,’ coming soon to Apple TV+.
Based on a true story and told through the improbable romance of Ernest Burkhart (Leonardo DiCaprio) and Mollie Kyle (Lily Gladstone), ‘Killers of the Flower Moon’ tracks the suspicious murders of members of the Osage Nation, who became some of the richest people in the world overnight after oil was discovered underneath their land.
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Who is in the cast of ‘Killers of the Flower Moon’?
(L to R) Lily Gladstone and Martin Scorsese in ‘Killers of the Flower Moon,’ coming soon to Apple TV+.
Moviefone recently had the pleasure of attending a virtual press conference, along with other members of the press, for ‘Killers of the Flower Moon,’ featuring Oscar-winning director Martin Scorsese. The legendary filmmaker discussed his new movie, what attracted him to the story, shooting in Oklahoma, historical accuracy vs. emotional truthfulness, casting Lily Gladstone, reuniting with DiCaprio and De Niro, and the music of the late great Robbie Robertson.
You can read about the press conference below or click on the video player above to watch excerpts from the interview.
Scorsese on Accurately Representing the Osage Community
(L to R) JaNae Collins, Lily Gladstone, Cara Jade Myers and Jillian Dion in ‘Killers of the Flower Moon,’ coming soon to Apple TV+.
The iconic director began by discussing how he and his production team went about accurately representing the Osage community in ‘Killers of the Flower Moon.’
Martin Scorsese: Well at first, it was very important for me, as soon as I saw the book, and I said, “Well, if you want me to be involved with anything that has to do with indigenous people and Native Americans, I had an experience in the 70s where I began to become aware of the nature of what their situation was and still is.” I’d been blindly unaware of that, I was too young. It’s taken me years and I’m fascinated by how do you really deal with that culture in a way that is respectful? How truthful can we be and still have authenticity and respect, dignity and deal with the truth, honestly, as best we can. Having said that, that story, when I read it, indicated to me that this would probably be the one that we could deal with that way. Particularly by getting involved with the culture of the Osage and actually placing cultural elements, rituals, spiritual moments. People talk about mystical realism or something. Now this is real. You see the dream. The dream is real. The ancestors come. So for me, I wanted to know how, I wanted to play with that world in contrast with the white European world. I felt that this could have afforded us the possibility. Ultimately what happened was that we were dealing with the script on the basis of the David Grann’s book, which is excellent, but the book also has the subtitle, the ‘Birth of the FBI.’ For about a year and a half to two years, I was doing ‘The Irishmen’ and that sort of thing, and Eric Roth and I were working and we felt that we took the story of the birth of the FBI as far as we could take it, and I wanted to keep balancing with the Osage and it was getting bigger and bigger and more diffused. Ultimately this was supplemented by the times that we went out to Oklahoma and met with the Osage. My first meeting was with Chief Standing Bear and his group, Julie and Addie Roanhorse and Chad Renfro, and it was very different than what I expected. They were naturally cautious. I had to explain to them that I’m going to try and deal with them as honestly and truthfully as possible. We weren’t going to fall into the trap. We think of the cliche of victims or the drunken Indian, this sort of thing, and yet tell the story as straight as possible. What I didn’t really understand the first couple of meetings was that this is an ongoing situation, an ongoing story out in Oklahoma. In other words, these are things that really weren’t talked about in the generation I was talking to and in the generation before them. It was the generation before them that this happened to and so they didn’t talk about it much. The people involved are still there, meaning the families are still there, the descendants are still there. What I learned from meeting with them, having dinners with them, including Margie Burkhart, I think she was the relative of Ernest Burkhart. She pointed out, and a number of other people pointed out that you have to understand, a lot of the white guys there, a lot of the European Americans, particularly Bill Hale, they were good friends. One guy pointed out, he said Henry Roan was his best friend, and yet he killed him. People just didn’t believe at the time that Bill would be capable of such things. So, what is that about us as human beings that allows for us to be so compartmentalized in a way? After they saw ‘Silence,’ they sort of felt a little more comfortable with me doing this. Margie Burkhart said, one has to remember that Ernest, her ancestor loved Mollie and Mollie loved Ernest. It’s a love story. Ultimately what happened is that the script shifted that way, and that’s when Leo decided to play Ernest instead of Tom White. By that point, we started reworking the script and it became really, instead of from the outside in coming in and finding out who’d done it, when in reality it’s who didn’t do it. It’s a story of complicity. It’s a story of sin by omission, and silent complicity certain cases. That’s what afforded us the opportunity to open the picture up and start from the inside out.
Shooting in Oklahoma
(L to R) Robert De Niro and Jesse Plemons in ‘Killers of the Flower Moon,’ coming soon to Apple TV+.
Scorsese was determined to shoot the film in Oklahoma, where the story is based. He talked about the first time he visited Oklahoma and how he began to visualize shooting the movie there.
MS: Well, I think the first time was in 2019. It was a little confusing because of shooting ‘Irishman,’ doing the CGI, which was a longer post-production, four or five months, and then COVID hitting, but I know we were there before COVID. We at least had two trips there before COVID. For me, I am a New Yorker. I grew up in the lower East side of New York. I’m very urban. I don’t understand weather that much or where the sun is when you’re on the set. I was very surprised to learn that it’s set in the West. That’s because I was driving down Sunset Boulevard one time about 30 years ago, and I saw the sun setting and I said, it’s great. It’s “Sun-set Boulevard.” The sun sets in the West, I go, “oh, now I get it.” Anyway, when I got there, all I can tell you is those prairies are quite something and they open your mind and your heart. They are just beautiful. Especially driving on these roads, straight roads were prairie and on both sides, wild horses, bison and cows, but the wild horses just out to pasture for the rest of their lives and it was like idyllic. So I said, “Where do I put the camera at this point? How much of the sky? How much of the prairie?” Should it be 1.85 or should it be 235? We got to go 235. You’re going to want to see more of this land. Then I began to realize that the land itself could be sinister. In other words, you’re in a place like this and you don’t see people for miles. You could do anything. Particularly, it turns out a hundred years ago, for me, 1920 is like fifty years ago because I was born in 1942, so the 1920s are to me the way the 1990’s are now to younger people. So when they told me, “Marty, this is a hundred years ago,” I keep thinking, “why are we making a period piece? It’s like normal.” I mean, yes, they were old cars. So I said, “It’s not really a Western, it’s normal.” But when I saw that and I realized this is a place where you don’t need the law. I mean, you have the law, but the law isn’t working that way. You can make the law work for you if you’re smart enough, as we know now, many people do. What I mean by that is that it’s still a wide open territory. You have law, but it’s a wide open territory. So the place, as beautiful as it is, can shift to being very sinister. What I wanted to capture ultimately was the very nature of the virus or the cancer that creates this sense of an easygoing genocide. That’s why we went with the story with Mollie and Ernest because that’s the basis of the love. The love is the basis of trust. So when there’s betrayal that way, that deep, and we know that for a fact that it was that way. Here’s our story.
‘Killers of the Flower Moon’ director Martin Scorsese.
Scorsese also talked about balancing historical accuracy with what he calls the “emotional resonance” of the movie.
MS: This was a constant, historically accurate, and I should say the word “truthful.” You can have a ritual and you shoot a ritual is the way it should be, but it may have been slightly different at the time. We had a lot of support from the Osage authority, the experts who were giving us the indication of how to go about these things, Johnny Williams, and a number of other people. So with them, we tested the accuracy of the rituals, the weddings, the funerals, everything that happened at the funerals, all of this sort of thing. In some cases there was wiggle room because quite honestly, I think the last two generations of Osage forgot about or was taken out of their experience because they had to become white European, they had to become Christians, Catholics, or whatever. So they forgot about all that. In fact, there’s a new resurgence of the learning of the language. We had language teachers there, and Lily Gladstone learned the language and so did Leo, and so did De Niro who really fell in love with it and wanted to do more scenes in Osage. But I suggested that maybe it’s too much for him, but he just liked the sound of it. They were all learning again to put their culture back together through this movie and we were going with them. So what actually happened was, we would ask, does this person put the blanket on this way, is that right? Well, one person would say yes, I would say maybe no. Another one would say, you have a little room here to play with it and have some creative license. So that’s the way we did it throughout every scene that way. That was done a lot in pre-production and during the shoot. So we had that as a basis. There are ways that were never insistent, but there were ways they got to me, certain information where it was Marianne Bower, for example, one of our producers and she’s like my archivist, and she was able to help keep it all together between myself and the Osage.
Casting Lily Gladstone
(L to R) Lily Gladstone and Leonardo DiCaprio in ‘Killers of the Flower Moon,’ coming soon to Apple TV+.
The director discussed casting actress Lily Gladstone as Mollie Burkhart and why her casting was pivotal to the film’s success.
MS: Well, I believe Ellen Lewis showed her to me in ‘Certain Women,’ Kelly Reinhardt’s film. I thought she was terrific and then COVID hit and we weren’t able to meet. So after the pandemic was calming down, we met on Zoom. I was very impressed by her presence, the intelligence and the emotion that’s there in her face, but you see it. You feel it, but it’s all working behind the eyes. You could see it happening. Also, her activism, which wasn’t overtaking the art, in other words, the art was in the activism in a sense. So the art takes over and in a way which we think then would be more resonant later on after you see the movie, you may be thinking about it more rather than a person preaching at you. I think the first big scene we did was one of my favorite scenes where she has dinner with Earnest alone and she’s questioning him, a little bit of an interrogation. “What are you doing here? Are you afraid of him? What’s your religion?” All this sort of thing. Then you begin to see the connection between the two. When she says, “Ha, coyote wants money.” And surprisingly he said, “That’s right, I love money.” So she knows, this is the other thing, she knows what she’s getting into. Even her sisters later, which is also a scene that we put in with the Osage and the Native American actors. They said, “What if we’re talking about the guys while they’re playing that game and we’re talking about my husband and talking about that guy with the blue eyes likes you and, you know, I don’t think he just wants money. It doesn’t matter. He’s nice. He wants to settle down.” Why don’t we just show that that’s how it could happen? So that’s the way the script was ultimately created by these moments. So with Lily, there was that scene, and of course the scene where he’s driving her in the taxi and it’s only one shot. He says something about, “I want to see who’s going to be in this horse race.” And she says something in Osage and He goes, “What’d you say?” And she says it in Osage again. And he says, “Well, I don’t know what that was, but it must’ve been Indian for handsome Devil.” That’s an improv, and you see her laugh for real. So that moment you have the actual relationship between the two actors. These were the two moments. We felt very comfortable with her. Also we had a feeling that we needed her. We needed her to help us tell the story of the women there. We would always check with her and work with her on the script. There were scenes that were added and rewritten constantly.
Reuniting with Leonardo DiCaprio and Robert De Niro
(L to R) Robert De Niro and Leonardo DiCaprio in ‘Killers of the Flower Moon,’ coming soon to Apple TV+.
Martin Scorsese has made ten movies with Robert De Niro, and five with Leonardo DiCaprio, but ‘Killers of the Flower Moon’ marks the first Scorsese movie to feature both actors. The director discussed his working relationship with both De Niro and DiCaprio.
MS: Well, in the case of Robert De Niro, we were teenagers together, and he’s the only one who really knows where I come from, people I knew and that sort of thing. Some of them are still alive. He knows them. I know his friends, his old friends, and we had a real testing ground in the 70’s where we tried everything and we found that we trusted each other. It was all about trust and love. That’s what it is. That’s a big deal because very often if an actor has a lot of power, and he had a lot of power at that time, an actor could take over your picture, the studio gets angry with you, and the actor comes in and takes it over. With him I never felt that. I never felt that. There was a freedom. There was experimenting and also, he’s not afraid of anything. He wasn’t afraid to do something. He just did it. Years later he told me he worked with this kid, Leo DiCaprio, a little boy in ‘This Boy’s Life.’ He said, “You should work with this kid sometime,” but it was just casual. With him, something like that, a recommendation at that time, I think in the early 90’s, is not casual. He says it casually, but he rarely said that. He rarely gave recommendations. So years go by and I’m presented with Leo with ‘Gangs of New York,’ and we worked together in ‘Gangs.’ He made ‘Gangs’ possible actually. He loved the pictures I’d made and he wanted to explore the same territory. So we developed more of a relationship when we did ‘The Aviator.’ Towards the end of it, there was something happening in maturity with him, not quite sure, but we really clicked in certain scenes and that led to ‘The Departed,’ and then we became much closer. That was a project where Bill Monaghan, me, and other people, we were writing all the time and recreating that character that he played of Billy. During that time, he really found out that even though it’s a thirty years difference, he has similar sensibilities. He’ll come to me and he’ll say, listen to this record. It’s Louis Jordan and Ella Fitzgerald. I grew up with it. He’s not bringing me anything new, but he likes it. That’s interesting. He’ll call me and says, “I had a cold and I was looking at Criterion Films and I wanted to catch up on some of these classics, and I saw this incredible movie. It’s a Japanese picture. It’s called ‘Tokyo Story.’ Did you ever see it?” This was last year, I said, “yeah.” I mean, it took me a few years to catch up. I couldn’t even understand Ozu‘s style, seeing it for the first time in the early 70’s because we used Orson Welles’ cameras, and this guy got it from watching it on a big screen TV. That’s very interesting to me to be open that way to older parts of our culture, newer parts of our culture, of course, and the curiosity that he has about other people and other cultures. There’s a trust. Even if we can’t get it right away, we know we’ll come up with something. Maybe other people have relationships where they come up with it faster. Well, we don’t. We just work it through. For example, the scene between Leo and Bob in the jail at the end. That scene ultimately was finally written, I think a few days before we shot it, working with the two of them and working with Marianne and everybody because we had said so much, and it could have gone so many different ways, but what does the picture really need? How much more is there for them to say to each other after all that’s happened? So we went that way. It’s trust. Particularly doing ‘The Wolf for Wall Street,’ by the way he came up with wonderful stuff that was outrageous. So I pushed him, he pushed me, then I pushed him more than he pushed me, and suddenly everything was wild. It’s really quite something. He had a good energy too on the set. That was also important. Very important, because in the mornings, I’m not really good and I’d get on set and then I’d see him or Jonah Hill or Margot Robbie, or him and Lily, and suddenly they’re all like, “Hey.” I said, “Okay, let’s work.”
The importance of Music in his Movies
(L to R) Martin Scorsese and Robbie Robertson at a screening of ‘The Last Waltz’ at the Toronto International Film Festival in 2019.
Finally, Scorsese discussed the importance of music in his movies, and how it influences the way he moves his camera. He also spoke about his longtime collaborator, the late musician Robbie Robertson, and his musical contributions to ‘Killers of the Flower Moon.’
MS: The way I like to make pictures, for the most part I’ve learned, not intentionally, but I feel it is like the pacing of music. The boxing scenes in ‘Raging Bull’ are like the ballet scene in ‘The Red Shoes’ where everything is seen and felt from inside the ring, inside the fighter’s head. The way everything is felt and seen inside the dancer’s head of Moira Shearer in ‘Red Shoes.’ The covering of the band singing ‘The Weight’ in ‘The Last Waltz,’ doing it in a studio was very much according to the music, to the different bars of music and how a camera would move, et cetera. Sometimes I played the music back on the set in the case of ‘Goodfellas’, a number of times. The end of ‘Layla,’ for example, was played back as we were doing the camera moves. For me, ultimately a movie is more like, I’m trying to get to a movie being a piece of music. I think that’s why I do these music documentaries at the same time, I’m trying to get to the pacing and rhythm of something that can be played. For example, you play a symphony and you live with it. “I’ve heard the Beethoven Symphony so many times, I don’t want to hear it again.” No, you play it. “Well, I like the third movement. I want to hear the second movement again.” No, I mean, you live with it. Or Baroque music, anything by Bach or Philip Glass let’s say. In a case like this, very often if a film is playing on TCM, I take the sound off and I just watch. It’s living with me. I live with it. If it’s a Hitchcock or it’s a Ford or a newer one, whatever, I’m looking, and I can tell there’s a musical rhythm to the pacing of the camera and the edit. What I mean by the camera, it’s the size of the people in the frame, the editing and camera movement. I could feel it. So that’s how I exist in a sense. So for me, it’s really about getting the pace of music. That’s done very carefully on set, but also even more carefully in the editing. That’s why this picture is more like somebody pointed out recently, a Bolero, where it starts slower and moves slowly and encircles, and then suddenly gets more intense, and suddenly goes more and more until it explodes that way. So I felt it. I couldn’t verbalize the way I am now, but I felt it in the shoot and in the edit. A lot of the music that kept pushing me was what Robbie Robertson had put together, particularly that base note that he was playing. When Ernest drops her off for the first time at Mollie’s house, she looks at him, she turns, and all of a sudden you hear, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I said, “I wanted something dangerous and fleshy and sexy, but dangerous.” That beat took us all the way through. Then he sent me some hymn and I picked up music from Harry Smith’s Anthology of Folk Music, all this sort of thing. One particular piece called the ‘Indian War Whoop’ by Hoyt Ming and his Pep Steppers was very important. ‘Bulldoze Blues’ by Henry Thomas, which became ‘Going up the Country’ by Canned Heat. All of this, and ‘See See Rider Blues’ by Ma Rainey, and of course Emmett Miller singing ‘Lovesick Blues,’ which became the great ‘Lovesick Blues’ by Hank Williams later on, but this was the first. So it’s all that’s in there, but the drive of the movie is what Robbie put down, and we pulled it through that way.
(L to R) Leonardo DiCaprio and Lily Gladstone in ‘Killers of the Flower Moon,’ coming soon to Apple TV+.
